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A Muslim man, in San Petersburg ( Russia ), killed a daughter just cause she was wearing a miniskirt, which is probably seen as scandalous for the Koranic law, he actually hired three other Muslims to murder the young girl!
Unfortunately this is not an isolated case but one of the many cases of intolerance and madness against women ( and more... ) from Muslim believers.
This didn't happen in the middle of somewhere like an Arabic village but in one of the most important city of Russia...
Certainly it's not the first time that we heard about similar atrocities and I personally frankly got enough...
I always had hard time in believing that this kind of acts are belonging to a genuine doctrine of the Koran or an interpretation of it...
I know that in the world there are "good" Muslims, but today there are too many horrifying and unacceptable acts made by them in the name of this religion, that I start almost to believe that the vast majority of them share a real brutal belief... I would like to know your opinion at this regard and overall if you think that it would be nice if President Obama, who strives for a "reconciliation" of USA with the Islamic World, will ask the most influential spiritual leaders of Islam to clarify once and for all if the religion of Mohammed is really a violent intolerant credo as it seems unfortunately often... and if these kinds of acts, which are really extreme and foolish, made always in the name of Allah, are legitimated or not by the Koran and by the contemporary spiritual leaders!!... So that finally we will be more aware of the real nature of Islam, because without a CLEAR explanation, a black shadow will be always surrounding them and their religion...

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That's the point Donna! The current version of the Christian and Muslim's religion is the result of human ambition and greed giving space to political influences. The marrying of religion and politics in the Theocracies is annihilating the peoples rights mainly the children and women. Only men benefit with Theocracies. We can't forget that All Mighty God in His Throne ruling the world by force gives support to violent behavior of men over others.
Founder, give des a freaking break, he is right. It's not all muslims doing this. It is the Ji'had, a new radical group. Read the freaking Koran, it is a NONVIOLANT RELIGON! The Ji'had retranslated the Koran to their extremist point of view. If you don't think other religons can do this, then think on this. KKK is christian. Nazi is atheist, and some christian. There are extremist in Judaism. The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh are Hindu extremist who use violence. So know what your talking about before you single out one religious group as "bad". I have several Muslim friends, and they are perfectly fine. No terrorism or anything, so leave em alone!
I'm not the most informed person here obviously... I refuse to watch the news because it's too depressing anymore. However, after reading a few of these posts in this particular discussion I have noticed that the posts by Founder are mostly slander towards those that post to this discussion. I am not judging because that is not my style, however, I believe that the purpose of these discussions is to hear another's opinion on a subject, not to berate them for their views. I thought those that are on this site were wise enough and mature enough to see the wisdom in respecting others, not putting them down for what they believe. I am disappointed in this aspect, for I truly believe we should be above putting another down just to make ourselves happy or to feel good.

Personally, I believe that NO ONE religion is evil. I respect all other religions, political views, and other people. We need to be aware of what's going on with the world, however, it is not our place to critcize or judge another for their choices.

No Religion is evil you say: that's a myth and a no sense!
Every religion can be good and evil, as everything in this world...
Religions are just human attempts to reach a spiritual goal... Many religions also were manipulated during the course of history, so that they were made "evil" , if I can say, just to apply to the obscure goal of their manipulators...

We know about many religions, as for example the Judaism of Biblical time, that was based on an severe and if I can say perceivable as "evil" God called Jaweh!... so better not to say anything at this regard...

Also the real meaning of good and evil poses more serious questions that lead us to a more serious analysis, of a naive statement as "I believe that NO ONE religion is evil!"...

Furthermore your refusal to watch the news, whether can be a respectable personal choice, in this unfortunate circumstances don't mean or change anything unfortunately! In fact Islam rely on our reluctancy and apathy to take action...
Regarding your postings dear brothers, whether in disagreement with my personal vision, I surely respect clear answers!
With a problem, again, that they are not addressing the real meaning of this topic.
They are just out of focus...

Let me just say that personally I'm not really interested in convincing people or in teaching them, rather to be in peace with my consciousness...

I think that the essence of this topic, which still unanswered, is not about my or your personal perception of what are Muslims as single entities... is NOT to discuss if there are good Muslims around, since I know personally some good of them and assume that many more are around the world.

The problem discussed here is ABOUT THE CORE OF THE ISLAMIC CREDO as a nucleus of fundamentalism that creates, surely boosted by well trained extremists fundamentalists Mullhas ( Islamic term for Guide ), a generalized attitude of dangerous blind fundamentalism! That's in fact another EVIDENT part of the problem! So that fundamentalists thinkers as Khomeini then and now an Ahmadinejad can easily manipulate millions of Muslims, as they are seen as their guides, chosen by Allah!

Do I have to repeat that whether they are "good" Muslim or not, this IS NOT the problem.

Do I have also to keep repeat that this attitude of passive apathy, from Pagans, was and is one of the many reasons why Paganism probably will never rank as respected religion! This also imply, as for many postings here, a discrimination against us since we will be never respected as a lazy and individualistic religion ....

It is furthermore evident that we cannot consider Islam as Christianism, just cause inside other religions are present a similar fundamentalists cells! Why? Cause the intensity of Islamic integralism and fundamentalism is much much more strong and spread out!...

Do I have to repeat that Islam in the US is much much much more different and mild of what it is in the rest of the Islamic world. Lookin' at the picture with this attitude is naive and incorrect and I will say shows a blatant ignorance of reality.

Islam is considering itself, as the other revealed religions, as the only depositary of truth, being surely a THREAT for us and the world. Then, until the masses of Islam they will abbandon and reject those fundamentalist concepts, the threat will remain!! Like the possibilty of another 9/11 and in the future years to become the first and dominant religion of the world!
In this unfortunate last scenario I know WHO will be at the command of Islam!! I can see a Nazi Mullah oriented leading the masses... and then this forum and us will be just shut down and banished and burned as heretics!!!

Why we need to risk that ?? ... better then to address NOW the problem with an united powerful effort, asking our Islamic friends about a clarification and a 360 degrees u turn with FIRST the immediate abolition of Fundamentalism and to "fired" immediately their Fundamentalists guides?

This "revision" of Islam can be done just and only through a complete renovation of that religion!!

Better then that Obama will address this issue, before another new 9/11 will force us, Americans or not, to close our TV just not to see another orrifying images of this Islamic Jihad, which has started, with a precise hegemomic plan shared by the Islamic religion Credo towards the goal to control and to enslave the world of Western Civilization!!

Am I clear with you, dear reluctant brothers, that just ask for a break instead to open eyes and ears?

I agree more or less with your vision,

... even more then an action or, if you like, a request from the outside Muslim world is absolutely needed, in order to get from the Islamic World an explanation and a rectification of this religion... by rectification I mean to reframe from a threatening fundamentalist religion to a more moderate credo that first will allow freedom among people... then accordingly to their response we will decide what to do next...
To further analyze the Islamic threat that cannot be dismissed with a superficial analysis and in sympathizing with a kind of diffuse anti Bush sentiment in the US, however I like to say that:

Surely G.W. did it wrong, in my opinion, badly addressing with a clearly inconsistent "casus belli" ( the Roman ancient Latin word meaning a justification of a war ) and then attacking first Afghanistan and Iraq. All of that as a response to 9/11, with the naive hope to catch a terrorist like Bin Laden and his friends, with an army and to discover hypothetical weapons of mass destruction.

This sounds to me like saying "Hey Bin I'm coming to take care of you with my troops and fanfare too...", obviously if I was Bin I will run away. In fact this is what probably happened.

This also, probably, can show how Bin Laden can jump freely in the Islamic world from country to country, being surely welcomed and covered, reinforcing the idea that Islam is just one even in being apparently fragmented! If you welcome a terrorist it seems obvious that you are sharing his ideas!

Then following a rational thought we can easily discover that the powerful glue that makes Islam unified was and is his own religion and credo!
Consequently, especially after being beaten in the ass so badly with 9/11 and more, will be, once again, a political and strategical FATAL error to consider them separated and not a smart move to just ignore the reality of this threat just to be "politically correct" and tolerant...

This anti-Bush sentiment doesn't need to drive blindly us to an opposite extreme position which is now to ignore the real implications of 9/11.
Which are not just related to the hostility against USA or Western civilization of a bunch of crazy terrorists, but have their deep roots in the Islamic behavior and direction, made in the East world after the suppression of Sufism, with a silent declaration of a new Islam! A new intolerant and fundamentalist religion!

Now I know that this site is a community of Neopagans and this issue seems to go to far and out of context, especially with the emphasis I'm using here. But I like to underline that the reason why I'm so tuned on this issue is cause I care for my freedom and the freedom of everybody else.

So that after having know in deep the Islamic world, cause I lived there and travel through it extensively, I think its about time, this TIME, to address finally to an end this problematic issue, that can hopefully be solved by man of good will from both part of East and West, to recreate a new peaceful Islam that will grow in peace close to the Western world.

My hopes are then on President Obama to address this issue to a real end with a dedicated symposium that can allow a revision of the Islamic World!

This is my dream and wish for the future as a person that loves freedom, being not an heretic since I'm not a Muslim, but a Roman Neopagan soul....

I think to have decently express, through my several postings on this issue my vision.
So that I will refrain to answer postings that I will consider out of context or without having a consistent substance....
i am not interested about this war but i know a few number of people in my country who fight against the islamic political party and a few month ago their party[islamic] fail in election.both are muslims so what.i am a muslim too and in muslim culture art is not allow and we suffer for that many times many way but we never throw our pencil or brush.in this site most people even founder they are free what they belive and nobody attack or tese about their belive but what happen in this side. we cant freely move with our personal belive.you fight against your enemy but we fight against our people against me. i dont know who is strong in mind .but i think this war never be stop because now this is not a religious fight now its came to be a treditional fight .sometimes politics.i am not try to be good or bad[its a matter of god and evil]and this is the cause of fight.i think i am trying to be honest
Well nurul,

thanks for your sincere admissions!

Knowing that you are a Muslim I'm posting what you said "... in muslim culture art is not allow and we suffer for that many times many way but we never throw our pencil or brush...." which translate in a prohibition of expression for the Arts and artists in the Muslim world!!....

Then for what I understood from your post and your admissions, it seems clear that WE CANNOT to risk or permit to let expand in our world also called a "Global Village" an ideological repressive oriented religion as it is Islam today!!

I add also, just in the case somebody doesn't know, that Islam means a population of millions of people:
Is the second religion of the world with 1,226 millions of followers, with the most rapid planetary expansion rate!! ... 19% percent growing compared to the 32% percent dropping of Christianism, which is the first religion of the world!!
( here's the hyperlink:http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm )


Now, as we well know, is not really just about forbidding arts that Islam proved is legendarious barbaric fundamentalism and intolerance! Long time are gone the days of the sublime Sufism, the immediate predecessor of current Islam...

Then if using my right mind I even want to believe that this Islamic message is directly coming from the Archangel Gabriel through the mouth of Mohammed, why I need to respect this repetitive distorted visions as a possible prototype of life? ... who's Mohammed from my perspective? ... who is this man?? ... why I have to believe that is right?? What Islam showed to be? ... what kind of model of life Islam is proposing to me? ... what is this arrogant religion compared to the sublime multiform genius of Roman, Greek, Egyptian Paganism??... I will tell you what is: nothing!!... what Islam is today sounds to me like an old blind muazzin chanting in a desert, crying for his sins in a masochist delirious, invoking his fake prophet for an impossible return to a stone age! ...

what for??????????

To be deeply thought by everyone, "sleepers" and good will Muslims included ...
i agree with you[why mohammad]but you cant touch my words.you say you like sufism so you must know the bawlism[lalon].i think every part of this world has its own religion and that is their culture.and thats why i think culture is more than religion because culture represent who i am and what and it show how i live because it depands on nature and geographic environment so why i need religion.mohammad and crist.for my paintings i visite a deep hill side[bandorbon]and i saw they have very rich culture even their dress and house structure are very rich though they are poor trival but now their culture mixed up with christan missionaries and we the city and village people following arabic dress and festival even sometimes their calender but you know we have a rich ancient calender[pongica]why why arab and bethelham ruled the world why this two religious culture and festival destory all the ancient festival.why my sister need to ware a black dress[borkha]there is no desert or silca its a desert needs not the forest or riverside people.idont hate my people but i onley hate who arise this problem and who try to stublish something religion.
Ohhhhh... sure Brandon... let's die together then!! or .... just let's hope for the famous Coca-Cola Mc Donald's effect on young Islam followers....it has already proven itself in Russia... didn't he?
For Americans, I think we owe it to our country to be educated about our nation, our position in the world and to be able to see varying perspectives and share our own – especially as Neopagans. I believe that's part of what Democracy is about. I, myself, have to do my own homework and my own critical thinking about the issues. It's not always convenient or simple but I think that is part of my own responsibility to myself and to my country. I don't always agree with what my country does or vice versa and luckily I can speak up about that. I didn't agree with some of the tactics that President Bush used to justify starting a war in Iraq, but I sure as hell know what happened on September 11th and also this year in many locations outside of the US in the name of Islamic law. So something THE FUCK is happening. I am not happy to see this, but it is TRUE. Can we at least start by saying YES to that?!

I just CANNOT believe that several of my fellow Americans on this discussion topic have failed to see the brutality and suppression of freedom that appears to be practiced by the majority of non-American Muslims outside of America. I am sincerely disappointed about this. We do not have to be brilliant political scientists here to take a little time and review the worldwide situation with a little bit of objectivity.

Now let's try to get on the same page.
I believe this discussion topic has a very important objective: to get opinions on whether or not it would be good for President Obama to ask the Spiritual Leaders of Islam to clarify the meaning of the ACTIONS (that have so clearly been taken) we see taken by many in the Muslim community as to HOW DO THOSE ACTIONS PERTAIN TO THEIR FAITH. And furthermore, are those actions sanctioned by the Koran? Are they sanctioned by the Spiritual Leaders?

I think this is an excellent idea. I don’t know how, diplomatically speaking, it should happen or when, hopefully soon, but I think it’s an excellent idea.

President Obama recently went on a tour of Europe, which included Middle Eastern countries. During that tour, he made a speech at his stop in Turkey which you can read the full text of here: LINK TO TEXT OF SPEECH

I thought there was a very relevant part of his speech, which I will paste at the end of my remarks, but what I think is most important is that he is beginning the discussions with Muslim nations. We can be skeptical of this, doubtful if you want to think nothing will come of it. However, I think that the discussion suggested by Founder/Paolo is perfectly in tune as a next step in the current blooming of dialog. Perfectly in tune also because of what we see happening in Pakistan.

This world is getting smaller and smaller and we have to learn to live together more than we have ever in the past. Admittedly, there are also fundamentalists in the Christian and Jewish religions who also believe their way is the only way. But I believe we need to prioritize and target the areas most severe first. Doesn’t mean we don’t keep fighting for what we believe in for the US. Just means in other parts of this world where people are brutally murdered in the name of religious law, I think priority is warranted to have these discussions with our country and those leaders of the Muslim faith because they are seemingly also leaders politically. I agree with Paolo. I think this discussion SHOULD occur. I think that we need to have the Muslim political religious leaders express what it is that they actually believe about in their faith as it relates to these brutalities and violence, about human rights and democratic freedoms, and what they don't believe in, etc. Then we will know better who stands in what position.

Here's the excerpt from President Obama's speech:
Turkey has been a true partner. Your troops were among the first in the International Security Assistance Force. You have sacrificed much in this endeavor. Now we must achieve our goals together. I appreciate that you've offered to help us train and support Afghan security forces, and expand opportunity across the region. Together, we can rise to meet this challenge like we have so many before.

I know there have been difficulties these last few years. I know that the trust that binds the United States and Turkey has been strained, and I know that strain is shared in many places where the Muslim faith is practiced. So let me say this as clearly as I can: The United States is not, and will never be, at war with Islam. (Applause.) In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical not just in rolling back the violent ideologies that people of all faiths reject, but also to strengthen opportunity for all its people.

I also want to be clear that America's relationship with the Muslim community, the Muslim world, cannot, and will not, just be based upon opposition to terrorism. We seek broader engagement based on mutual interest and mutual respect. We will listen carefully, we will bridge misunderstandings, and we will seek common ground. We will be respectful, even when we do not agree. We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world -- including in my own country. The United States has been enriched by Muslim Americans. Many other Americans have Muslims in their families or have lived in a Muslim-majority country -- I know, because I am one of them. (Applause.)

Above all, above all we will demonstrate through actions our commitment to a better future. I want to help more children get the education that they need to succeed. We want to promote health care in places where people are vulnerable. We want to expand the trade and investment that can bring prosperity for all people. In the months ahead, I will present specific programs to advance these goals. Our focus will be on what we can do, in partnership with people across the Muslim world, to advance our common hopes and our common dreams. And when people look back on this time, let it be said of America that we extended the hand of friendship to all people.

There's an old Turkish proverb: "You cannot put out fire with flames." America knows this. Turkey knows this. There's some who must be met by force, they will not compromise. But force alone cannot solve our problems, and it is no alternative to extremism. The future must belong to those who create, not those who destroy. That is the future we must work for, and we must work for it together.



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