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Following the course of history we know with certainty that all the major religions of the world plus the minor ones, including New Age Cults and Movements, are born and shaped following the previous Pagan old ones.

So we can say with confidence that we are the development-evolution of the previous ones.
At this point the final result is that no matter what we believe, all of us are "the sons" of Paganism.
Then we can call ourselves without doubts the new Pagans or NeoPagans!!

What do you think about this evidence?

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Comment by Founder on November 20, 2008 at 12:20pm
1. As an example of an ancient philosopher-scientist I paste below a brief excerpt from Wikipedia, about Pythagoras of Samo:

"Pythagoras of Samos (Greek: Ὁ Πυθαγόρας ὁ Σάμιος, O Pūthagoras o Samios, "Pythagoras the Samian", or simply Ὁ Πυθαγόρας; born between 580 and 572 BC, died between 500 and 490 BC) was an Ionian Greek mathematician and founder of the religious movement called Pythagoreanism. He is often revered as a great mathematician, mystic and scientist; however some have questioned the scope of his contributions to mathematics and natural philosophy. Herodotus referred to him as "the most able philosopher among the Greeks". His name led him to be associated with Pythian Apollo; Aristippus explained his name by saying, "He spoke (agor-) the truth no less than did the Pythian (Pyth-)," and Iamblichus tells the story that the Pythia prophesied that his pregnant mother would give birth to a man supremely beautiful, wise, and beneficial to humankind.[1]
He is best known for the Pythagorean theorem, which bears his name. Known as "the father of numbers", Pythagoras made influential contributions to philosophy and religious teaching in the late 6th century BC....."

2. Religion and philosophy didn't predate science, but created the foundation for science, since the dawn of civilization!!

3. Plotinus talked about the One ( the first principle or God ) as the light emanating from an "inner" invisible Sun, source of the whole Universal energy!! Our Sun is just His manifestation in this material plane, as seen from the Neoplatonic "chain of procession" point of view.
Comment by Founder on November 20, 2008 at 12:15pm

read Porphiry, Plotinus' disciple. His book ( unfortunately only some excerpts remain from his 22 books written on that issue...) "Against Christians".

Yes all the major religions of the world are coming from previous Pagan ones and are shaped on the previous ones structures etc. ... you can decide then how to consider them!
Comment by Founder on November 19, 2008 at 7:08am

regarding Socrates trial, I think that his attempts to improve the Athenians' sense of justice may have been the source of his execution. The episode was related to the war between Athens and Sparta, so that I cannot consider this episode, as you pointed out, as an attempt to"shut up" logic....
Surely Socrate's treatment wasn't a great example of wisdom from the Athenian Tyrants!! But it also needs to be said that this event belonged to a period of war with Sparta, so that the harsh words of Socrates against his own city were seen as an attempt to destabilize and because of that he was condemned as an example for the whole community of Athens.

Then this episode, as many during the ages, describes more the military customs-laws of behavior during a war, versus controlling Socrates freedom of thinking.
Comment by Rowan Canterbury on November 19, 2008 at 6:50am
Well you can say one thing Paolo..you definitely got a good topic going. It is a great thing to work out these confusions..a family that communicates is a family that stays together. So here's to getting to know each other and working to forward a beautiful concept of spirituality without Labels....

Love Rowan...
Comment by Founder on November 19, 2008 at 6:44am
A general remark: in my opinion with the Greco-Roman Philosophers,Paganism reached the maximum, especially with the NeoPlatonist philosophers. This philosophy, started by the Roman thinker Plotinus in 200 AD, was a mixture of logical-metaphysical-scientific thought, melded together.
My reference will be always pointed there as a meter of comparison!

Regarding Donna's Comment on Pagan perspective, I cannot agree: Paganism worshipped Gods in the past and it is worshipping them now.
Regarding Donna's Comment on persecutions: Christians were persecuted by the Roman Emperors primarily because they considered it to be a religion for naive ignorant people, which was dangerous for the Pagan masses. Also ( yes ) some Emperors persecuted this newborn religion because it was seen as an element of instability for the Roman Empire. Christianism embedded also feminine symbolic and cultic elements, that in fact lead, among others, to the fall of the Empire.

Finally, my personal invitation to all of you in this community is to consider Paganism in its whole spectrum, which contains literally everything starting from white magic to Satanism! Then, accordingly, we need to be tolerant with our friends that may or may not think differently from us...
Then better to not put a label on Paganism!!
Comment by Rowan Canterbury on November 19, 2008 at 5:12am
In the years I have taught pagan faiths I have come to notice that being Pagan is not that easy. It is epically difficult for people that were raised Christian and or with any other very structured belief system. It is like taking the emotional training wheels off. Terrifying when you think of it... Taking your reality, one that you have had instilled since birth and challenging it...and possibly eventually letting it go. I do not want to see Pagan people lumped under any umbrella. My wish is to see the world without religious titles. I want to see individual divinity. I can understand your point Jackflash. I had and still have many questions as to god..but in the end I am sure there is a higher power. Scientifically and Spiritually I understand energy and the two have many cross overs. I think the problem may lie in the fact that most people with Scientific and logical minds don't like not knowing. Spiritual people like "Believing" I like exploration. I think that if there is a God..and I say IF..because I am woman enough to not think for one moment that I know for sure...then he/she/it must be an awesome and unfathomable being that no one human can comprehend.
I believe everyone has the right to believe but no one has the right to deny a life form of it's quest for that understanding....
Even teaching and being part of a coven, I refuse to consider myself a high priestess. I believe that any "witch" and I use the word loosely, that does not to his/her best to enlighten and support others even to the point of being proud when they surpass even our own abilities...is indeed a sad sad..being..
I will never be labeled or put into a category. People can call me what they want..I can't control that..I can only laugh at their selfishness...they can make religious organizations...they can write books on history..but in the end I will only be affected by what I allow myself to be affected by.
I think when we have evolved enough not to obsess over what each other believe and start worrying more about how we live our own lives and what WE can do to make a better future...we will be closer to the divine.
Comment by Rowan Canterbury on November 18, 2008 at 5:12am
I have found it interesting to post on blogs..I have learned over many years the true definition of spirituality...I used to bury my head in a book and freak out over definitions..I used to get offended when someone challenged my beliefs or what I had read about history...in the end I realized that it was all for nothing. Arguing with people over the writings of old men found me no peace. I was not on a magical path..I found that so many people are control freaks and only seem to drift toward the pagan beliefs because they want the power that the church has so HISTORICALLY enjoyed for so many years... You want literal and logical? That will be your religion...and take it from someone that knows...in the end it is about what YOU believe...and just in case you were wondering..PAGAN is a Latin word derived from PAGANA which means loosely translated..."someone that lives in the country" or "a simple folk"
I have met more pagans than I am sure many can shake a stick at...and I have not been impressed with about half of them...
It is our CORE of belief that defines us as individuals..how we choose to live every moment of our lives...I was taught Pagan faith by a Pagan..and OLD pagan..and it had nothing to do with the workings of man...as a matter of fact..I was informed..and it was one of the most eye opening things I have ever been taught..that if you look to human kind for pure magick you will be sorrowful and mislead. People are driven by desires..such as greed, control and self indulgence.
So..Definition of Pagan...we know thus far that it is derived from the word Pagana...
Definition of Religion: Bullshit..spewed by man to put forth his own agenda.
Definition of Religious history: A valuable tool that could have been used to better mankind, but when put in the wrong hands has become a destructive force yet unchallenged in our known world. "A waste of time" in my opinion.
The truth is...ready for it....wait for it..wait for it...NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE. If people are ignorant enough to believe everything they read..and trust me all sources point in every direction..they loose focus on what the divine really is:
So there you have Rowan's opinion in a nut shell..is it right? Well hell..I don't know..I am PAGAN enough to know that I don't know..and I never will completely know and I will spend the rest of my life learning...they day I think I know for sure ....is the day I stop growing....
Comment by Rowan Canterbury on November 18, 2008 at 5:02am
are you talking to me?
Comment by Rowan Canterbury on November 17, 2008 at 11:16am
I don't know..I can be pretty wanton...heheheh
Comment by Rowan Canterbury on November 17, 2008 at 5:27am
Actually it has been speculated if not proven historically that early Christians were indeed Radicals. Of course the were persecuted by Pagans...everyone..that is if you consider the Jews pagan..and they are..if only in the right that they hold no belief in Jesus..back then WAS pagan...In Rome..the most noted time of Christian Persecution in history..and since then they have made up for it with flying colors...Christians were "punished" for crimes against the Emperor. They had taken to Lynching people. Protesting in the streets..they even burned down temples in Greece and made a hobby out of Chariot dragging scholars (epically female) through the streets until dead....Remember..these were not the Nice shiny haired Christians we know now that have some type of civility..these were Zealots..and there are Zealots in every faith. They were the forefathers of the Inquisition. Well, Constantine..(that would be the emperor) Did not want people running around the already chaotic streets of Rome saying HE was not descended from the Gods...and let me tell ya...The Christians were...they were persecuted and fed to the lions as were ALL people that committed crimes against the government or the Emperor.
In the end the Political Genius of the early Catholic church can not be debated. After all...I love it when people say..well the Jews killed Jesus...when in fact..they may have said..This guy is nuts we want noting to do with him..here you have him...but it was the ROMAN soldiers that did the deed...Funny that the first REAL Christian organization of any size and validity was the Catholic Church... ????
In the end...we are evolved from "excuse my expression..." A cluster fuck of religious entanglements. But Yes Christianity was completely if not at least 85% made from Pagan religions. It was a ploy by the counsel of Narcia "SP" to unify the religious upheaval in the roman empire. The story of Noah's arc can be dated back 2000 years before the bible and linked to countless flood legends including Pagan and Hindu Legends...If you take the time to study you will actually see that the story of a Mortal being born to A God and a Human was not a new trick. The vikings had done with with Baldir and Odin...Baldir actually looked more like the Jesus we see now than the "real" Jesus did..heheh And of course we all know that Hercules was the Blond son of Zues and Hara.....
I think what our educated and rather insightful friend is trying to say is...we have only reinvented the wheel and named it Christian..and it never really was....this is sometimes hard for Christians to accept...and I can understand that...It is kind of like being told..Your parents have been lying to you FOR A VERY LONG TIME.


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